Transcript:
[00:00:00] Kiran: Hi, my name is Kiran Bishop. I'm 17 years old and I became interested in finance freshman year of high school. As I became part of financial clubs, I realized that a great deal of the time I was one of, if not the only girl in the room. This feeling of being disconnected to everyone around me while simultaneously being in a room full of people is what inspired me to create this podcast. Women Who Earn. I created this podcast to help young girls like me gain knowledge and wisdom from industry professionals on topics ranging from how to break into finance, to how to deal with unique challenges posed from being a woman in the industry. It's important for me, and I hope that it is also important for you, that feeling alienated by a situation out of your control does not inhibit your motivation to pursue whatever you want.
[00:00:47] Kiran: This is Women Who Earn.
[00:00:50] Kiran: Today I will be joined by Shannon O'Mara. Shannon O'Mara is the Associate Director of Credit research at Loomis, Sayles & Company, [00:01:00] where she is also the senior analyst on the home construction and building materials industries. Additionally. In 2015, Shannon founded the Undergraduate Women's Investment Network, UWIN, a mentorship program whose mission is to inspire, develop, and recruit undergraduate students who are underrepresented in the investment management industry. In 2019, Shannon was recognized by InvestmentNews as a Woman to Watch honoree for her leadership, contributions, and impact in the industry.
[00:01:29] Kiran: She began her investment journey in 1993 and joined Loomis Sayles in 1998. Prior to Loomis Sayles, Shannon was a credit risk manager and lending officer at JP Morgan. She earned a BA in Economics from the University of Rochester and management certificates in finance and accounting. From the William E. Simon School of Business at the University of Rochester. She is a CFA charterholder. Thank you.
[00:01:59] Kiran: [00:02:00] Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you setting aside time for this. And we should probably just jump right into this. First off, I feel like you should just go over your career trajectory and how you got to where you are today.
[00:02:16] Shannon: Sure. Kiran, thank you so much for doing this. It's such important work that you're doing, so I'm delighted to help get the word out so we can get more women into finance. So, my name is Shannon O'Mara. I'm associate director of our credit research group at Loomis Sayles. I have been at Loomis for quite some time, and here I wear a couple different hats. I'm associate director, so I partner with our director of research in managing and leading the group globally. We have offices in Boston, in Chicago, and London and Singapore. I'm also a senior analyst, so I do have sector coverage for some consumer cyclicals. And I also manage our investment undergraduate Women's Investment Network program, which we refer to as UWIN and I can talk a [00:03:00] little bit more about that. But prior to Loomis, I was with JP Morgan, where I was there for about five years. I went through their training program, got credit trained, and then, ended up moving from New York to Boston. I graduated from the University of Rochester with an undergraduate degree in economics.
[00:03:19] Kiran: Great. Well, thank you. Did you always think that you were gonna do something in finance or economics, or was that more sort of you decided in college that you wanted to major in it.
[00:03:31] Shannon: So I may have shared with you earlier that I thought it was gonna be pre-med, which is just so completely laughable now knowing myself and what I currently do. I really liked sciences, so I thought, oh, this would be a good track for me, and then ended up taking a bunch of science classes and thinking, no, this is not my trajectory. But then I decided that, okay, maybe I'll be a math major. And I really liked my math courses and thought, no, I don't wanna be a professor. I'm not really sure what I could do with a math [00:04:00] degree at the end of this. So tried to figure out how I can combine some of the things that I liked and ended up taking a lot of finance, accounting, economics courses. And that's really how I ended up with that major. I would say coming out of school I had. Pretty much no idea what I wanted to do. I thought maybe I'd be an actuary. And because I was gonna be a math major, I did go down that path and I took an actuarial exam. I did an actuarial internship at an insurance company in the summer between my junior and senior year. Lovely people, great project, but thought again, this is not where I wanna go. I knew a couple things. One is, I liked finance. I liked thinking about investing. Those were the classes that I enjoyed the most. I also knew that I had a boatload of student loan debt that I needed to get a job that was gonna pay me well. So I ended up going to a career fair in New York City and I thought, let's just see how I can parlay this. And it was a bunch of investment banks and some [00:05:00] insurance companies and other financial institutions, and ended up getting in line with JP Morgan and, they liked my spiel, and before I knew it, I was interviewing with them and accepted into their training program. So that's kind of how I, I don't know if I stumbled into it, but I was able to identify some of those skills and areas of interest that I really liked and to see how I can actually leverage those into a career.
[00:05:21] Kiran: Yeah, I think that's very interesting. I think most people don't really know what they wanna do until they sort of just stumble upon a career that kind of seems fit for them and. I mean, I don't know 'cause I'm still in high school, but I feel like your career is very flexible and it's not like one thing that you're set in and you can always change.
[00:05:40] Shannon: Absolutely. And you know, when you're in school, you know, in high school you're concentrating on like getting good grades and taking AP exam and doing all your extracurriculars. So you get into college and you get into this good college, and then it's the same thing. It's all about like, How do I do well in school? What courses do I need to take so I can figure out what my major's gonna be? And I almost wish that college was [00:06:00] more than four years, 'cause I wish that students had time to really explore. But it seems like almost by the end of freshman year, it's like, okay, what course do I need to take so that I could take this course at my major and this major? And you're constantly thinking about checking off those boxes. And then when you get to your first job, you know you have to make the decision for your first job. And there's so much stress involved in it. And what I would say is like your first job's not gonna be your last. You know, you're gonna, maybe you'll fall in love with your first job. I am envious of those people who knew I'm gonna be a doctor, or I'm gonna go to law school, or, you know, I wanna be a biomedical engineer. Like, I don't even know what that means. I find that so admirable. I definitely was not one of those people. And I think, you know, if you're not one of those people, like your first job, you're gonna learn something from it. It may not necessarily be what you love, but I think with each job it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself. What do I like to do? What don't I like to do? I think about my daughter who did an internship this summer. It [00:07:00] was an electrical engineering internship. Great company, great people, had a wonderful experience, but she said, I'm pretty sure this is not what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. And I was like, well that's great. So you can check that off the list. But she learned some things like, oh, I really like X, Y, and Z. So hopefully your next job you'll be able to do a little bit more of those things and bring you joy and less of those things that you find out, nah, not really interested in that.
[00:07:24] Kiran: Yeah, I think that's a very important thing that maybe is not talked about that much, where there's so much stress placed on like, oh, you need to be this when you grow up or you need to do this, this, this, and then as a result you'll get this great job that pays however much and whatever. There's so much, and I guess you get put in this box and we really need to just break out of it. Along the same topic of like your career and your trajectory, what moment are you most proud of in your journey?
[00:07:54] Shannon: It's hard to distill one moment over the course of 30 years. But I [00:08:00] would say, and this is gonna sound super simple, but when I look back on those things that I'm most proud of are those things that really took me outside of my comfort zone, which is really scary to do, right? To do something like go into the unknown. You know, I did something, when was this? This is probably a few years ago now. I did a podcast and it was with Candy O'Terry. The story behind her success, and I don't know if anyone knows Candy O'Terry, but she was this beloved radio voice in Boston for years, and she did a keynote and was facilitating a huge fundraiser that I went to. And someone introduced us and said, oh, you know, you should be on her podcast. And I was like, oh, that's really funny. Like her podcast is huge. And one of my colleagues said, look Shannon, you know, you just gotta do it. You gotta get comfortable being uncomfortable. And that has stayed with me for so long. So when I think back to. Those kind of defining moments in my career, and again, this might seem really simple, but it was finding a [00:09:00] mentor and at the time, like I didn't know this guy was a mentor, but it was when I was at JP Morgan and a few of us young women decided that we wanted to start a women's network. What the heck did we know about starting a women's network? But we did it and I dunno, there were like maybe eight of us. We got an advisor who was a more senior banker, a woman, and we were, we would host these town hall meetings with like very senior people. And here I was 20, I don't know 25. I had to facilitate this panel of three MD bankers and one of 'em, again, I didn't know it at the time, but I struck up a relationship with him and he would bring me into his office and he would have ask me those tough questions like, Shannon, what do you wanna do with your life? You know, what do you like to do? And he really helped define, you know, the trajectory of my career at a very young age where he helped plant some of those seeds. So I don't underestimate the value of mentorship. And if anyone asks me, like you, Kiran to reach out, [00:10:00] to get some time on my calendar, usually the answer is yes. And it's usually a lot of young women like yourself, but anyone who wants to, for a reason, I'm usually willing to have these discussions. And then I would say the second thing, that I'm really proud of is this Undergraduate Women's Investment Network, and our mission is threefold. It's to inspire, develop, and recruit underrepresented folks into investment management. And we do this through a mentorship program and internship program, and we provide professional development and technical skills that are needed to succeed in the industry. And I identify this as a need years ago when I was having difficulty finding a diverse slate of candidates for some of my junior research positions. And I was like, if I could just find these women and bring them into the office and show them that we exist and show them that this is a really rewarding career and it's a place where they belong and can contribute and add value and be respected, then maybe we can make a difference here. I've really underestimated the impact that that's had, not only [00:11:00] on the women who've been in the program, which is now close to 250. But also on my colleagues who support it pretty broadly, you know, they're getting something out of it as well. 'cause mentorship is usually a two-way relationship, right? The mentee is the one who's learning a lot, but it's also the mentor who gets something out of it as well. So I would say those couple of things, stepping outside of your comfort zone to do something that maybe you wouldn't necessarily think of doing. Kiran, looking back on it, when I do these things, Kiran I would say I, I'm never like, ugh, I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wish I wouldn't have put myself out there, because that's how you learn and grow.
[00:11:34] Kiran: Yeah, I think that's a very important lesson to be learned. And I guess talk a little bit more about the difference between UWIN and maybe the program that you ran when you were at JP Morgan. I guess maybe lessons you learned at the first one and how it translated over to this one.
[00:11:52] Shannon: Yeah, so it's funny to think about. JP Morgan, and now it's been a long time since I've been there, so to draw any [00:12:00] comparisons to now might be a little bit unfair, but I do remember when I went into the analyst training program at JP Morgan, and even when I got to my group in Global Credit, I never felt like I was out of place. I never felt like a minority. I mean, JP Morgan did such an incredible job kind of creating a very diverse analyst class, and I never felt that I was one of a minority, and even when I went to Global Credit, there were four managing directors in the group. Two were men, two were women. My group was very diverse, ethnically, gender wise, but we wanted to start this network and, when I think about it, we didn't know what we were doing and we just really wanted to kind of meet people, network, get access to maybe more senior level folks in the organization. When we started we wanted a clever name for it. So we decided to name it WIN, which is the Women's Interactive Network, which was kind of dorky, but whatever. We went with the acronym of WIN. And [00:13:00] it's funny, I was looking recently at the JP Morgan website and they still have an employee resource group specifically for women. Now. It's been renamed, I think it's called Women on the Move. And the mission is very, actually, very similar to what we do for the UWIN program, which is to retain, develop, and advance women. We have a women's employee resource group at Loomis Sayles for Loomis Sayles. And I would say the mission is not quite identical, but very similar to that. So a lot of these things are sort of converging around the same thing, which is increasing representation in the industry.
[00:13:30] Kiran: Yeah. What's your opinion on the overall gender gap in the in industry? Like why do you think it's there? Why do you think it's so big? Where do you think it starts?
[00:13:39] Shannon: That's a good question and I wish I had an answer. I wish I had the answer so that we can go and solve the problem. And I've talked to a lot of undergraduate women about representation and you and I had this conversation about your investing club. You know, you're the only woman. And when I talked to all these undergraduates that have [00:14:00] participated in the UWIN program I ask the same question, what percentage of your class, your finance class, your accounting class, your corporate finance class, econometrics, whatever, it's what percentage of women. It's usually somewhere between 20 and 25%. So clearly something's happening before college. So you're experiencing in high school, maybe we need to go back to middle school. I don't know. But I have been involved in mentorship programs for high school students. There's an organization called Invest in Girls, not to be confused with Girls Who Invest, which is another very successful program. But I think representation matters. You've heard people say, if you see it, you can be it. And I think that it's uncomfortable to be the only woman in the room, like period. It is, I mean, I was talking to my daughter about it just, over the weekend where she's working in this internship and there's a lot of men, and she happened to be in one meeting where it was all women. She's like, wow, what a difference. Like, it just, I felt like I could let my guard down a little bit. It's just different. Like you can't explain it unless you've actually experienced that. [00:15:00] I think with investment management, which is the firm, the industry that I'm in, I do think that there are some, again, this is just talking to some of the students that I've talked to that they maybe confuse investment management with investment banking and look it, investment banking, its different connotations. Look it, I worked there, I had a very good experience, but, hopefully you're not watching like crazy, movies like Wolf of Wall Street and things like that, and all you think are, this sea of a trading room. But it's much more than that. Things have certainly changed, but even so, investment banking is not investment management. So I do think that is, part of it. Like, oh, no, no, no, I don't wanna go into banking. No, no, no. This isn't banking, this is investing. You know, this is a very different role than investment banking. So those are a couple things and I don't know if it's, we have to go back to high school, middle school to start changing some of these gender maybe there are stereotypes, but I think you know, what you're trying to do is great with this podcast. What I'm trying to do with UWIN is great and hopefully collectively we can start to make a [00:16:00] difference.
[00:16:01] Kiran: Yeah, I think, I personally think that it starts in high school and I think a very big reason I. Is probably some of those movies that you mentioned like Wolf of Wall Street, where they, like some of the guys, they'll watch the movies, they'll develop this idea of what it means to go into finance, and then the vibe that they create is hostile, I would say, or I don't know if that's the best word for it, but they definitely create like a hostile environment and like an unwelcoming one at that. It's not so fun if you're a girl.
[00:16:36] Shannon: Right. And I don't know if it's necessarily creating a hostile environment or the perception of it being unwelcoming because you are the only girl, or the only woman, or one of very few people in the room and it's, it can be uncomfortable.
[00:16:50] Kiran: Right. And I know that, not many women go into investing, first of all. But as you progress throughout your years and throughout your [00:17:00] career, have you ever seen the pattern where women begin to leave the career, or leave the industry? Like as you progress in your roles? And do you have an idea of why?
[00:17:11] Shannon: So, you know, I guess I would leave that to, maybe some of the experts who study those things, like Deloitte has a big study on that, McKinsey has a big study on that. I think about my own experience at Loomis, have people just left the industry? I haven't really seen that. I mean, we've had folks that have gone to, say, competitors, maybe gone to business school, maybe gone to the sell side. You know, investment management's buy side, investment banking is, is sell side. And that's sort of normal and to be expected. And I think, maybe the bigger question is, why do women drop out of the workforce at a certain period of time? And I truly don't believe it's because they're less ambitious or less successful. That is definitely not the reason. I think back to when I first had kids, so I have two kids now, [00:18:00] and before, I think maybe when I was pregnant, I don't know where I found this book, but it was something like The Working Woman's Guide to Life or something like that. And there were three things that they said you needed to be a successful working mother. One was to have a very supportive partner. Okay. Check. Second was to have a supportive employer check, like good benefits, flexibility, et cetera. And then the third thing is excellent childcare so that when you are at work, you don't have to worry about what your child's doing. And I really focused on making sure that I had, obviously I was married and had to have had very supportive spouse and I would be the early person to work. So I would arrive at work at seven and then I would have to leave early. And I asked my boss, I'm like, look, I can't stay till 5, 5 30. I need to leave at four, whatever, because the train, my train schedule was such that . What I ended up doing is, the markets are the markets, if you don't finish your work and something's gonna happen the next morning when the market's open, like you better be ready for it. So, [00:19:00] you just do work from home after the kids went to bed and that's what you know, you would do to make it work. My employer was very supportive of this. And then excellent childcare. Like I had excellent childcare. I, we first used a daycare center and then I had an Andy once I had two kids and I just didn't have to worry about any of that. And those three legs of the stool are so important. It's not like you can have two. Or one, you literally have to have all three. So to me that was a non-negotiable. Obviously child bearing is a defining moment in a woman's life. Like she has to take leave, you know, she has a, she's having a medical event, you know, she has to take herself out of the workforce. But being able to openly provide that support to allow women a successful ramp back on is really, really important. But, it's frustrating to see the numbers as, you know, we've seen some of the McKinsey studies that as you go up from entry level, it's, the population as I know is 50 50. And in fact, when you look at university degrees and you probably, are gonna see this as you're starting to [00:20:00] apply to colleges. When you look at the diversity statistics, it's more women, they're in college than men, and I think it's something like 55% of undergraduate degrees today are given to women. So they're becoming, a greater portion of the educated population. And not to say you have to go to college to get a job, but it certainly is one statistic out there that you would think that as you continue to go through an organization that it should be equal representation and it's not. So I think programs like UWIN and some things that you're doing to shed a light on this will certainly help to make a difference collectively.
[00:20:32] Kiran: Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's not really much else to say besides for that being a mother, in addition to also being part of the workforce is a different sort of struggle that many men don't have to go through. And yeah, you do need that sort of support if you wanna also be successful. Many women maybe don't have that sort of support, or they only have two out of the three legs of the [00:21:00] stool. That kind of hinders their ability to continue in the workforce. Continuing on the topic of women in the workforce. Is it the case that, or do you think it's the case that most of the times women support each other in the workforce? Or is it like as you progress, it becomes more competitive and because of the lack of diversity and there's sort of like this toxic environment that begins to grow. And I know that you have these sorts of programs that are very supportive, but I mean like on a person to person basis.
[00:21:39] Shannon: So I would say supportive. Absolutely. I see, at my organization, women Supporting women very openly. And at the end of the day, we need more women. We need more representation. So we need diversity of thought, experience. Gender is one component of that clearly. But I have observed nothing but [00:22:00] women supporting each other, cheering each other on celebrating our successes. And I think we've evolved. We think about managing your brand, like what do you wanna be known for? Right? You wanna be known for my investing acumen, my research recommendations, and part of your personal brand is what do people say about you when you're not in the room? Right? I try to make it a practice, whether it's a man or a woman, to talk about all the good things that X, Y, Z is doing when they're not in the room. To shine a light on that, you know? 'cause I want more women. I wanna be a proactive advocate of that. I don't wanna be shunning people. I don't wanna be saying they're less than, I welcome those people and I think together we can be more successful than trying to say, oh, well there's only room for one woman or two women. No, that's not the case. If you're in an organization that values diversity, then this is something that will be supported. Like my company, we have a lot of diversity programs. We have a lot of employee resource groups that, that service [00:23:00] different populations of the company. When I think about the UWIN program, the Undergraduate Women's Investment Network program, when I rolled it out, like what did I know? Like I'm this, research person trying to do this diversity program. And I remember going out to my first college thinking like, what if we build this and nobody comes. Well, they came and then I was a little concerned like, well, I need colleague support. Like I need 40 mentors like now. And the response from my colleagues, both men and women, I. In some cases more men, because we tend to have more men in the organization than women raising their hand. And I had more mentors than I had students, and then I would have some mentors that would say, oh yeah, I wanna be a mentor again the next year. And then we'd have new people who would raise their hand, and then the returners or the folks who had been a mentor the year before, they're like, wait, I just saw the list come out. Why? Why did I get a student? I want a student. I'm like, well, that's great. Like we have to take turns here. And most people, whether you're a [00:24:00] man or woman, doesn't matter. Like they remember being. 22, 23, 24 in college. 19 thinking, trying to figure out the world, like what do I wanna be when I grow up, and how do I utilize my skills and interests to translate that into a career? And my colleagues say, gosh, I wish I had somebody like that I could talk to. Yes, I support this. And they support. They're like, yeah, absolutely. We want more women, in the organization. We want more representation. So I would say, at least for me, people who talk to me and maybe they say things to other people, but I can only judge it from the response that I receive and the interaction and engagement that I have with my colleagues and women alike. This is a forum that we use to shine a light on the need. And then also we have an employee resource group specifically for women. And their mission is to sort of help retain and develop as well. So they're collectively working together. It's mostly women that are part of this network to provide professional development, communications, [00:25:00] training, access, panel discussions, community outreach. I mean that these are just ways that women are supporting women universally.
[00:25:10] Kiran: Right. And, continuing or focusing more on your UWIN program, is there anything that you would've done differently or like anything that you've learned that going forward might be helpful?
[00:25:24] Shannon: So I would say thinking back, and this goes back to like my JP Morgan days, and I'll never forget when I was in our first. Group meeting, meeting with our managing director, and there was a bunch of us around the table and there was a colleague sitting right next to me who was in my training class, and I was nervous, scared, just don't say anything. Just write some notes down, like just, keep to yourself, speak when spoken to kind of thing. It was literally like the first meeting and she's raising her hand, contributing things and I'm like, get a [00:26:00] load of this. Oh my gosh, I can't. And not that I was like, how dare she? It was sort of like, wow, how brave. I wish I could be brave like that. I wish I could use my voice like that. And I wish so nervous. I was nervous of saying the wrong thing. I was nervous and like, oh, I'm gonna say something stupid, or I don't know. A hundred percent of the answer. I only know 99.9% of it. So clearly I'm not gonna say anything. And once I got outta my comfort zone and started doing that a little bit more, it builds confidence. And confidence begets confidence. I just wish that I would've found my voice sooner. And I know that's, it's, it's not necessarily a tangible thing like, oh, what do I wish that I would've done? I just wish that I could have. Developed that voice, develop that confidence so that I could be more engaged; showcase that I knew what I was talking about, 'cause I think for a long time when you're a student, it's all about getting the grades, putting your head down, getting the marks, getting the aps, getting the National Honor Society, like you have all these accolades and they speak for [00:27:00] themselves. And that's true for sure. But at some point, you need to start speaking up and letting people know, like, I've done this, I can do this. And letting people know the value that you bring to the table, not just letting your work speak for itself, because yes, your work speaks for itself for sure, but you have to be your own advocate as well.
[00:27:19] Kiran: Right. Do you have any advice for someone who wishes to find their voice or any tips?
[00:27:27] Shannon: Well, first of all, I would say practice. We have communications coaches that we work with third parties, and they are invaluable. A lot of what I do as an analyst is just communicating my investment ideas, whether it's in writing or in presentations. But if you're looking to become an effective communicator, practice your elevator pitch. Everyone should have an elevator pitch, like when you get on that elevator. And someone says, oh, hi Kiran, how's it going? What are you working on? Or what's keeping you busy these days? Or, oh, you just joined, tell me about yourself. You're like, what do I say? Be prepared, you know, [00:28:00] be prepared for when those things happen. And I would say be brave. I just wish that I could have been braver and part of it was maybe I was in classes with a lot of men and they have deeper voices and. I also have three older brothers that would always talk over me at the dinner table, which drove me nuts. That has something to do with it too, but practice. Just practice getting outside of your comfort zone.
[00:28:23] Kiran: Yeah, I think that's some very great advice. What's the best advice you've ever received?
[00:28:30] Shannon: Oh, gosh. So best advice I've ever received. Hmm. So part of is advice and then part of it I think is just observations that I've made. And they're really twofold, and they kind of go together. Yeah, maybe they go together, but about building relationships and listening. I think these are universal themes, but when I think about my own role as an analyst, like as an [00:29:00] analyst, you are called upon to be the expert about. Your industry, the companies, the investment recommendations that you're making, like you are constantly like telling people what they should be thinking, right? And it takes a while to build up that expertise. And then when you transition to being, or at least when I transition to being a manager and a leader, I. Guess what? I didn't have all the answers in the room. I wasn't the expert, so I had to surround myself with people who know more than I did, which is humbling, especially when you come from a certain perspective. And not to say that I knew everything I was to know. Certainly I didn't, but I was an expert at my area of expertise, and now I was being asked to do something completely new, and I really had to work on listening and reaching out to people and listening rather than doing all the talking rather than saying like, oh, I have all the answers. And I guess with that is, is the value of relationships. And this cannot be underestimated. And I find that, your generation or the millennial generation, who grew up on technology, they're [00:30:00] very comfortable communicating over an electronic platform, whereas business gets done in relationship with each other. So I will never forget, this was years ago and I asked an associate saying, oh, can you call the trading desk and ask them whatever bond is trading. And his response is, oh yeah, I'll send them a message. And I said, no, no, no. Pick up the phone and call him. And he was kind of annoyed a little bit, but after the third time of saying this, he kind of came around finally and said, I'm really glad you pushed me to do that. And I said, yeah, because you have to form a relationship with this person because you're gonna be recommending a bond to them, and they wanna get comfortable with who you are, that you know what you're talking about, that they can rely on you. You're smart, you know that you've got the information that they're looking for. So it's an opportunity to make that impression. And I think building relationships is just super important. And sometimes you have to be strategic about it, but also whoever you end up meeting. 'cause you just never know when you're gonna be in a position where you might need somebody's help or you might be in [00:31:00] a position to help somebody else. So I'm not sure if those are necessarily like advice, but they're probably things that I've learned along the way that have been really helpful in serving me in my career.
[00:31:12] Kiran: Well, thank you so much for your time. My final question is, do you have any closing advice or ideas for girls who are interested in pursuing your specific career, and advice you have for building meaningful connections and collaboration?
[00:31:32] Shannon: So for girls who are interested in finance, I would say be curious and reach out to people so you can really, truly understand what it's like. Part of it is being brave. Part of that is getting outta your comfort zone, utilizing your network. Like look it, my mother was an accountant at a university and my father was in the Army. I had zero perspective, zero, coming into [00:32:00] this. So I really encourage people, young women in the UWIN program to have informational meetings, talk to people about what it is that they do, and I advise them to just reach out to people, get connected, and be prepared for that meeting; be prepared for that discussion. And I would say there's a few crucial questions you should be asking of somebody. And it doesn't matter if it's finance or another industry, another role, whatever it might be. But please explain what it is that you do. What is your, there's no average day, I recognize that. Like, describe an average week, like who are you talking to? What are you doing, what are you producing? And then I ask like, can I see an example of that? Like if it's not proprietary, but like, what does that look like? And then I ask you like, why do you like what you do? Like what brings you joy about this? Like obviously I'm spending a lot of my hours at work with people, spending way more hours with my people at work, doing work than with family, friends, et cetera. And it, and I've done it for a long time. [00:33:00] So what brings you joy? And then I say like when I look at investment management, I could be a trader, I could be a portfolio manager, I could be a strategist. You know, I am not one of those things because of X, Y, and Z. So what brings you joy? And then, to make it more tangible, like, okay, so what's your secret sauce? Like, what does it take for you to be successful? Like, what are those skills, those tangible skills, attributes, characteristics that you need to be successful? So then you can really paint a picture because when you just get Investopedia or the Vaults, the career guide, you're reading this, you're like, it's a little bit of gobbledygook. Like you're just like, I can't understand what this means. But to talk to somebody who's really in it and to delve a little bit deeper, get curious and find out what it is that they're doing, and hopefully you're gonna find something with somebody that resonates with you. Like, oh, I could totally see you doing that. That sounds super cool. Or, oh yeah, I really like coding as well, and I didn't realize I could use it to do X, Y, Z, whatever it is. That [00:34:00] process of getting curious and meeting people, and it's called networking, and people think like, oh, networking, ah, it's really scary and I gotta go to a networking event, and you gotta prepare. Like everything is about being prepared, but networking is something that we do. It's a lifelong skill that you have to just start developing and keep going because the network, once you start to build it, is something to be nurtured. Otherwise it's gonna die in the vine. So, it kind of goes back to that building of relationships that we talked about earlier. But don't be afraid to ask those questions. I wish I didn't have as much fear as I did back then, and sometimes I'll, and look, now I use my stupidity to my advantage sometimes because I'll be talking to management teams, like, I don't understand what you're talking about., Can you understand, how this flows to your income statement, like, Help me understand this. It's the first time I'm looking at this like, I'd much rather be honest and upfront at the beginning and you can say like, look, this might be a stupid question, but this is why I'm asking it. I'm trying to really understand something. As I say to young analysts, I'm like, use your stupidity to your advantage, which is not necessarily a criticism, [00:35:00] but it's that message of just being curious, like trying to get your questions answered. 'cause the last thing you wanna do is, if I'm having a conversation with you and I tell you what's going on, you say, oh, okay, thanks. And then you walk away and you're like, I have no idea what she was just talking about. Like, for me, I'm like, I'm cool, we're good. She understood it, but it's really up to you to make sure that you understand the information that's being presented. So, A little bit of rambling there, but those are some things that I certainly share with some of the folks in the UWIN program and some of the more junior analysts that join us.
[00:35:29] Kiran: Well, I think that was some really invaluable advice, and thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:35:35] Kiran: Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of Woman Who Earn. I hope to see you next time.
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