Transcript:
Kiran: Hi, my name is Kiran Bishop. I'm 16 years old and I became interested in finance freshman year of high school. As I became part of financial clubs, I realized that a great deal of the time, I was one of the only girls in the room. This feeling of being disconnected to everyone around me was while simultaneously being in a room full of people is what inspired me to create this podcast: Women Who Earn. I created this podcast to help young girls like me gain knowledge and wisdom from industry professionals on topics ranging from how to break into finance, to how to deal with unique challenges posed from being a woman in the industry. It is important for me, and I hope that it is important for all of you, that feeling alienated by a situation out of your control does not inhibit your motivation to pursue whatever you want. This is Women Who Earn.
[00:00:47] Kiran: Today on Women Who Earn, we will be joined by Maya MacGuineas a renowned economist. Maya MacGuineas is the president of the bipartisan Committee for a responsible federal budget. [00:01:00] Her areas of expertise include budget, tax, and economic policy. As a leading budget expert and a political independent, she has worked closely with members of both parties and serves as a trusted resource on Capitol Hill.
[00:01:14] Kiran: MacGuineas testifies regularly before Congress and is published broadly, including regularly in the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Financial Times, the Atlantic, and numerous other outlets. She also appears regularly as a commentator on tv. MacGuineas oversees a number of the committee's projects, including the grassroots coalition, Fix the Debt, the Committee's Fiscal Institute, and FixUS, a project seeking to better understand the root causes of our nation's growing divisions and deteriorating political system, and to work with others to bring attention to these issues and the need to fix them. Her most recent area of focus is on the future of the economy, technology, and capitalism. Previously, MacGuineas worked at the Brookings Institute and [00:02:00] on Wall Street. In the spring of 2009, she did a stint on the Washington Post editorial board, covering economic and fiscal policy. MacGuineas serves on a number of boards and is a native Washingtonian.
[00:02:11] Kiran: Thank you again for joining me.
[00:02:13] Maya: Sure. Happy to.
[00:02:16] Kiran: I guess, we can get started. I mean, I feel like first maybe just give an overview of like sort of your career trajectory maybe and how you got to where you are today.
[00:02:27] Maya: Sure. So I've run the Committee for Responsible Federal Budget for about 20 years, and it's a group that's bipartisan very important to me because I'm a political independent and it focuses on fiscal responsibility, which is an issue I'm passionate about, because I think it underlies all of the other economic and budgetary issues that we have in our country. So I think being fiscally responsible is really, really important. how did I get here? So after college had a big decision to make, whether to take a job at the Brookings Institution as a research [00:03:00] assistant or go to London and work in a pub, and it was very, very close, but I went with the Brookings Choice. And I thought that being a research assistant was really one of the best first jobs I could have because basically they paid me to learn new things. So I absolutely loved that. I wanted to then take that research knowledge and apply it in the private sector. So I went and worked in Wall Street for a few years, and while I was there, it's where that's when I discovered this issue, I became very, very fascinated with how, bond markets, stock markets and the things going on in New York City related to public policy and the things going on outside of Washington and why they seemed so disconnected. So I learned all about budget deficits. I even wrote a book, but they ended up bouncing the budget before it could get published. And from there it was just kind of this group came along. I was gonna start my own organization actually doing this, and this group already existed and their founder and CEO was stepping down, so they came and recruited me to run the group. I've been doing it ever since and, it's kind of a dream job.
[00:03:59] Kiran: Well, thank you. That [00:04:00] sounds really interesting. I mean, did you ever, I mean, I guess imagine in high school that you were gonna sort of grow up and get super interested in like economics?
[00:04:11] Maya: That's a good question. I didn't, in high school, I don't know how it is for you, but we didn't have economics classes. And so I didn't study it. Then actually what happened was I went to college and I was a math major or mathematical methods in the social sciences to be specific, and after about two of the three quarters, I was on the quarter system, I realized it's too much math for me. Like I couldn't get my head around it anymore. And so from there I switched into economics, which I loved. I think it's just a really useful way to look at the world and. Not even that. I love it so much. I think everybody needs to study some economics. There's a lot of emphasis on different policies and people wanting to do really good things in the world, but without an understanding of economics, I think it can tend to fall short. So I think it's a necessary thing for everyone to study, and I found it [00:05:00] so interesting. I really liked it. I did double major. I also studied psychology because I wanted to understand both how. People worked and how markets worked and kind of combined the two.
[00:05:10] Kiran: Thank you. I mean, I think Sidwell has sort of changed a little bit. I mean, now there is an economics class.
[00:05:15] Maya: There is. Oh wow.
[00:05:17] Kiran: But it's a history of economics class that you can only take as a senior if you somehow get slotted into it. And it's a semester long course.
[00:05:25] Maya: But that sounds like a really thing. Interesting thing to get to study. So I'm glad they have something on it. Yeah.
[00:05:30] Kiran: Yeah. But then it's like, some kids drop history class after junior year because they want to double up in another class, so I'm not gonna be able to take it next year because it's also one of the most popular classes. So no one ever gets slotted into it.
[00:05:44] Maya: Yeah, well there's lots of time in college for economics. Yeah. And there's lots of good books to read.
[00:05:49] Kiran: Yeah, I'm interested in studying it, but like you, I'm also very interested in studying math, so we'll see.
[00:05:55] Maya: Yeah, the math. The math is a lot. I loved my Sidwell math, that's for sure.
[00:05:59] Kiran: [00:06:00] Yeah, me too. It's why I like math so much.
[00:06:03] Maya: But actually when I was there, they started a new program where a number of us took math twice a day, and I thought that was awesome.
[00:06:10] Kiran: Yeah. It's really fun. Yeah, I mean, I was trying to double off in math senior year with this one specific course, but then not enough people signed up so it wouldn't run. But I'm taking another math class instead, so I'm still happy.
[00:06:22] Maya: Good, good.
[00:06:23] Kiran: Yeah. , I mean, what moment are you most proud of in your like whole, entire journey? I guess from maybe graduating college all the way up until now.
[00:06:33] Maya: Oof. That is quite an interesting one to think about. You know, the things that I've most liked and been most proud of is coming up with some of my own ideas and writing about them, usually for op-eds. So one of the things I learned to do while I was at a second think tank called New America Foundation was write a lot of op-eds on different ideas. And I find it's a great way to kind of succinctly describe anything from my head. An idea on how to make private [00:07:00] accounts as part of social security in a progressive way to why the traditional thinking about marriage bonuses and marriage penalties and the tax code was wrong to, different ways to reform tax breaks, to help raise new revenue, lots of different ideas, and getting to write about them both as op-eds and, I've written a couple articles in the Atlantic. I always found those really satisfying. Probably my most interesting moments are when I go off on special learning projects and want, like right now, like everybody else, I'm obsessed with ai, so I'm spending a lot of time studying and learning more about ai. I've done a little presentation that's really just for myself, but just to think through all of the thoughts I'm having on the topic and I'm gonna go take a class at MIT on it. So I think the things that make me proudest have been that even when you have a career in one area, you can keep learning other areas and that I've really enjoyed.
[00:07:51] Kiran: Right. Yeah. I think, I guess life long learning is something that's very important and just never really disappears no matter what [00:08:00] specific industry you go into.
[00:08:01] Maya: It's really well put and it's gonna be more important because the pace of change is so much faster than it ever used to be. But it's also important just on a personal level, to stay satisfied in your work, to have something that's really fulfilling. Definitely. That is not, oh, I know how to do everything, and now I can do it really easily. It's, how do I keep finding new challenges?
[00:08:18] Kiran: Right. And I guess, even though I assume that you're pretty fulfilled with your work at this point, has there ever been a moment where maybe you have felt intimidated from being like the only woman in the room or from being maybe from feeling like you are looked down upon or that you're underestimating?
[00:08:39] Maya: You know, it's a really good question and people have such different takes on it. I am not someone who gets particularly affected, like I am in a field that is almost all male do dominated. It really is. And so even when I host things, I try to figure out where I can, you know, make a really good, diverse group. And I do this great job on diversity [00:09:00] of, ideology or politics. Like, everything I do is very bipartisan, but it's almost always male dominated. And so honestly I don't even notice it that much. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it or worrying about it. There are times that people make assumptions and you just go in and you know you're gonna disprove it. Like if it's on the budget, I'm gonna be able to talk about the issue. It's what I've been doing for decades and I know it inside and out. And so, I look at it as motivation more than anything else. But I also try not to get too caught up in worrying about the gender breakup and just like, it's the quality of the work. It's the quality of work and how you surround yourself by the absolute smartest people you can in any field that you're working in. And, you know, I hope more women will get into economics and finance and budgeting. One of the reasons I probably was drawn to go to Wall Street back then as my, as a young 24 year old was I didn't think enough women went to Wall Street, so that kind of drove me. But once I'm there, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I just [00:10:00] kind of think about what it is that we're doing and trying to accomplish and, and very feel very motivated by that.
[00:10:05] Kiran: Right. I think that's a very interesting perspective that, I guess a lot of women who are in very male dominated industries hold because I feel like it's sort of a perspective that you have to take on if you're willing to, or if you're going to maybe not survive, but thrive in one of these industries. Because I think it's very easy to get caught up in this idea of being like underestimated. And then that in turn, might, you know, make you have a lack of confidence in your own abilities, which sort of maybe will mess you up in the long term.
[00:10:37] Maya: Some of the really standout women in this field, Janet Yellen, Alice Rivlin, bell Sawhill, all of them were really kind of trailblazers because they rose to the top in an era when not that many women did. And when I talked to them about it, it's not something they gave a lot of thought to. They just kind of put their nose down and worked probably three [00:11:00] times as hard as everybody else. They're super, super smart, but they didn't get caught up in the kind of like, Oh, this is so much harder. Cause I'm a woman, they just, they just, they did the work and they broke out and I think they're kind of inspiring for that. They're inspiring for a lot of reasons.
[00:11:15] Kiran: Right. And I guess along the same vein, do you maybe have any ideas for how to encourage more women to get into the industry?
[00:11:21] Maya: Let's see. It's interesting. My daughter right now is off studying finance. She's a high school student also studying finance and economics. And I think that came from both her father and I being in that field. So, and from talking about the issues, I think we have to make sure, certainly you have to avoid sexism in the educational system where you don't expect that girls wouldn't want to go into these fields. And I think it comes from probably focusing on how we teach everybody and make sure that those of us who are kind of having impact on people aren't going in with any assumptions that link gender to what fields you might be interested in. Then, I think it also come from within where people just find [00:12:00] something they love and they're driven. For me, I was never, ever given the impression that it would be something I wouldn't do as a girl or a woman. I remember that like from the youngest time at Sidwell, I had teachers who encouraged me on math all the time and never entered my mind that it would not be fields that girls would go into. And that's probably what made the most difference, both parents and teachers who never, ever even discussed that it would be a problem. So we just, I just assumed I could do anything I wanted.
[00:12:29] Kiran: Right. I think that's a very important thing to have, to have all this like environmental support from everyone around you. I think it makes a very big difference, especially even now, like with me being in high school, I feel the support around me and I feel like if I didn't have it, I might have a different outlook on all this stuff. Maybe what I want to do in the future or this sort of things I'm interested in now.
[00:12:53] Maya: It's so interesting because I think that we probably talk about gender much more now than we did when I was growing up, and I don't know whether that's gonna make [00:13:00] it easier or harder for girls to assume they can break into things, because I worry that too many times people hear how sexist it is out there. And quite frankly, I bumped into much, much less sexism than I would think that I would have. From the descriptions I hear these days, it's not something I encountered very often at all.
[00:13:19] Kiran: Right. Yeah. I feel like there is a lot more talk about sexism and even now, like at Sidwell, there's an investment club and my personal opinion is that a large reason that a lot of girls don't really join the club is because they hear about how there's this giant lack of diversity. And since everyone's talking about sexism so much more, they feel a lot more intimidation than maybe they would if it wasn't pointed out in the first place.
[00:13:44] Maya: I, that's what I wonder. I mean, I don't wanna jump to an assumption, but I wonder if it, this well-intentioned focus on how important it is that we get girls and women more engaged, which is a hundred percent true. But I wonder if it isn't almost backfiring in some ways of pushing people away from where they would've gone if they'd never given a thought [00:14:00] about it being something that girls didn't do.
[00:14:03] Kiran: Yeah, I think it's a very interesting conversation to be had, even though the best way to maybe trailblaze in an industry with a lot of men is to just kind of keep your head down and work very hard. Did you ever have a mentor in the industry who kinda supported you throughout?
[00:14:20] Maya: You know, I didn't, I don't know if I have mentors cause I don't know if they would call themselves mentors. I have people who I looked up to massively. And one of the things that I have found the most helpful in my career is to see someone who's doing either a job I want to do or acting the way they, acting in the world the way I wanna act and just be able to watch them. There have been three of them. They were all parts of my board of directors here, Bill Frenzel and Alice Rivlin, who have both since died. And Leon Panetta, who's still alive, but they've all been on my board and watching the three of them sort of similar. Um, watching people who, one, they, they were always very good to me [00:15:00] and have to put their trust in me and also been able to tell me kind of politely when they think I could be doing better on things. And I like, I like feedback and I like negative feedback cause it allows you to get better, but they also do it very diplomatically, which has always been, a useful skill to look at. But they're all people who have big commitment to issues in a way that's principle based, have a real humility in understanding that their point of view isn't the only one that matters, even though they have a very strong point of view, treat people incredibly decently, even though they all rose to kind of the top ranks. Incredibly successful. Always, always so decent to all the people they work with, and really, really smart. Really, really hardworking. So really, I think watching them and other people too, but, but three, those three stand out for me. Watching how they've conducted themselves professionally and what they've accomplished and becoming friends with them have been the greatest things for me. Because what scares me is to walk into [00:16:00] a situation I've never seen before. Don't know what to expect, especially if I have a leadership role in it and know how to behave. But I can do anything the second time. Right, like throwing, and we have a big annual event. The first time I threw it, it was terrifying. The second time I know how to do it. Big speeches, big conferences. The second time around was always easy. So having people I admire to watch and kind of try to emulate in different ways, that's been the most inspiring and helpful thing for me. So I feel like they, they inspired me. I don't know if they would say they were my mentors, but I look to them as the people I've really, really admired along the way, and it's been incredibly in, it's been invaluable. Helpful.
[00:16:35] Kiran: Right. Yeah. I think it's also very important, even if you don't have a mentor to have sort of, I guess an idol or someone that you can.
[00:16:44] Maya: Yeah. Well, here's a story. I was working maybe at Brookings first, one or two jobs. And there was a guy, Gene Sterling, he's also my board now, who was very politically independent, knowledgeable in tax and budget policy, wrote great books, easy to read. And I called him up outta the blue and I said, [00:17:00] so this might sound weird, but I wanna be you when I grow up, could I take you to lunch? And he very, very kindly said, yes. And it's people like that, especially in Washington. I think there's a lot of that, but once you see somebody who's doing something that you think you'd like to do, that to me has been a great way to build my career. I used to have, One, three and five year plans. None of them ever worked out. Nothing ever went according to plan. So I dropped that. I might still have some, and they still don't work out. I kind of find them comforting, but they, they don't usually happen because the real trick is being open for opportunities when they come along. Knowing when to take risks and knowing when something's too risky and you shouldn't, don't, don't eff with happy is another thing I call. I just, it's in our family, it's in our job, but if you're happy, don't always walk away from that cuz that that's a pretty good sign. But I think knowing who the people I admired and having that, be able to help me figure out what jobs I wanted was really great, and so picking up that phone and asking [00:18:00] someone if you could take them to lunch, it worked for me really, really well with Gene Sterling.
[00:18:05] Kiran: Yeah, I think that's also a very interesting story. Like I think it requires like a lot of confidence to just be able to call someone up, especially so early in your career.
[00:18:14] Maya: I mean, confidence might be a nice way to describe like stupidity. It was probably something, and there are a lot of things I did that I didn't know better. And so I even got some jobs by calling up CEOs of Wall Street banks. I would call the head of the bank and ask for a job and they answered the phones back in those days and then they'd send me to the right people. But that's how I got interviews at all sorts of firms. So sometimes I didn't, just didn't know what I should have known. That's not always a good thing.
[00:18:38] Kiran: It worked.
[00:18:39] Maya: That could be a bad thing. It worked in those instances. There's also probably some pretty bad stories.
[00:18:44] Kiran: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess maybe it's a little different now, but I think it's still a very interesting way to go about your career or go about getting things that you want or, you know, discovering things that you're interested in.[00:19:00] Sort of along the same vein, throughout your career, is there anything that if you could do differently, you would've done?
[00:19:09] Maya: Hmm. It's hard to say because I do kind of look at life as all the mess ups, all the things that are terrible, all the tragedies, traumas, challenges are what bring you to where you are. And I'm super, super happy. So it's hard for me to say that I have any regrets. There are a lot of specific things that wouldn't make interesting stories, but on, on policy things where. I made the wrong call, did the wrong thing. If I could go back, I would have used a different strategy, knowing now what I knew then. I think managing a team of people, which is very different than being a spreadsheet analyst, which is what I always was, has proven to be one of the bigger challenges. So I probably would've gone and taken some leadership and management classes. I think a lot of things in the world they let you do without studying how, I can't believe they let me be a parent without making me take parent classes. So it's the same kind of thing, but honestly, I [00:20:00] think. One of the best skills I've been able to develop for myself is doing my best out of every time I screw up and make a mistake, which is a lot, using it as a learning experience. And one of the things I've tried to teach my kids and other people is if you'll make so many mistakes, what you have to do is go and really apologize to whoever you made it to take responsibility for it and vow that you're gonna learn from it. And then it's hard to, then, it's hard for anybody to be too upset about it because we all, we really, we make mistakes every single day. But taking the time to think about what you would've done differently is really helpful. So too many to tell. None of them would be that interesting cuz they're specific to the moments and just making the wrong call. But, using them as a way to learn and strengthen along the way can be very helpful. And it, it helps take the sting out of every time you make a mistake as well.
[00:20:55] Kiran: Yeah, I would have to agree. I guess that's sort of the same way I look at [00:21:00] things I've done in the past. Maybe the sorts of mistakes I've made because it's, it's impossible to go back and change the past and so there's no real use.
[00:21:07] Maya: Right. Ruminating on it just makes . You feel terrible. And the best, the best answer is, I won't do it again, or I'll make up for it by doing something great. And you use it to push you to wanna do something even better next time.
[00:21:19] Kiran: Right. And I mean, well this is, I guess this question is sort of similar, but I mean, what's the best advice that you've ever received? It doesn't have to be, you know, career wise or like anything could be. Like a perspective.
[00:21:33] Maya: Easy. It's easy. My dad, who gave very little advice when we were all brought up, our parents were just kind of not paying attention. It was a different, different era. He just gave me one piece of advice and it was surround yourself by the smartest people you can find, and that's what I've done. The people who work with me are just the smartest people I ever could imagine. The jobs I've had along the way, I always like being like, you gotta not be scared to be the dumbest person in the room because that's how [00:22:00] you learn, but. Finding, finding the smartest people you can work with and also good, decent people. But that was the best advice. One thing my father ever said, well, when I was doing really badly in college, he told me to try not to flunk out and to shape up. That was also decent advice, but the most important thing in the long run was surround yourself by the smartest people you can find. It makes work just so exciting.
[00:22:21] Kiran: Yeah, and I agree, and I guess there's so much to learn from someone who's, I guess, so smart.
[00:22:27] Maya: And smart is in lots of different ways. I mean, we have people here who are the smartest number, numbers, people you ever meet. But the other thing that you don't realize until you're really working is what strategy really looks like in a job. But there are people here who are so good at helping to run an organization thinking about how to position ourselves, what the right thing to do to get a certain outcome, are so smart, comes in all sorts of shapes and forms, and being able to put together teams where they compliment each other is also really useful. Yeah. And surrounding yourself with people who are good at the things you're not good at.
[00:22:58] Kiran: Right. [00:23:00] Yeah, I agree. I would have to agree with that. My closing question is, I'm gonna sort of come back to the theme of empowering the future generation of women, so, I mean, do you have any advice for girls who are interested in pursuing the career that you're in or doing this?
[00:23:18] Maya: Ah, I absolutely do. And I, and I think, I think it's more advice to girls who are interested in pursuing lots of different careers. It doesn't apply just here, but it's two-sided. So the first thing is do the work, work so hard, go deep, really learn these issues, whichever they are. Pick something new that other people aren't studying. The reason that my career has been so satisfying to me is I found an area I absolutely loved federal budget. But not that many people were working on it. So I was able to really help an organization that, that had been around Blossom and get bigger and have us stand out and figure out how to position it. But that was all from really doing the work and learning the issue, and I spent a summer before I went to graduate school, reading every single thing I could, [00:24:00] writing that book that I wrote, just digging down, nobody was paying me. It was just on my own. Learned the issue really well, and then applied everything I was doing in graduate school to that. But the flip side is, Once you become an expert, and I put it this way because you shouldn't do this before, you've really built your expertise. You don't wanna be young, I tell my kids this all the time, you don't wanna be so young and go push your ideas on people. Like, my son has an internship this summer and I, and we keep saying like, okay, what would you do differently? What do you think about the company? How are you learning things? But you never go and push your ideas until you really, really have a wealth of knowledge. But once you do, go share your best ideas. Go. Push your, don't push yourself. Try to get in those meetings. Try to sit at the table figuratively, not literally, but like try to be in the space. And I think my single best piece of advice for people who are starting out, look at what you wanna do. Look at the person who's doing it, and look at it from their position and figure out how you can help them. [00:25:00] So don't go into a room and say, this is what we're doing wrong. Go into a room and say, this is what we could do better. And everybody who's working is always desperate for somebody who can help them to improve the whole organization and operation. So really trying to be solutions based, but with the humility that you take the time to learn the issue really well. Think about how it's working, not just from your own perspective, but everybody's, and then go try to find solutions and offer how you can help. Play in them. Those for me, I've watched so many young people with meteoric rises because they've done that. So that wasn't, that wasn't like a bumper sticker advice, but I hope it was. If I were giving a bumper sticker, I would, I would guess, I would say is make solutions, not problems. Recognize problems, make solutions, something like that.
[00:25:46] Kiran: I think that's very important advice that, like you said, can be apply very broadly, not just to, yeah. Maybe like your career, but also just like anywhere in life.
[00:25:57] Maya: And question things. I mean, just because things have been [00:26:00] done one way, there's always room to think about different ways to do them. Like I said, some of the things, the best things for me came out of not knowing how I was supposed to act or do it, but so did some of the worst things. So don't pursue that one too much. Try to apply it to the right situations. That's my advice.
[00:26:17] Kiran: Well, thank you so much for joining me for this. I really appreciate it.
[00:26:22] Maya: Absolutely. So, so excited that you're doing it. I will look forward to hearing how your whole project goes.
[00:26:27] Kiran: Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of Women Who Earn. I hope to see you next time.
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